First comment : "Hyperlocal control of public schools was a barrier to reopening them, because there was a leadership vacuum." This can cut both ways, centralized decision making does not gauruntee reopening... not at all. The fear continued to be reinforced and even amplified for many months.
Very Interesting. Both the right and left have those who care deeply both about the poor and the democracy, but this pandemic has shown how many prefer to mandate and control freedoms and not prioritize the vulnerable nor understand nuance.
so... mandating vaccination of elders is "ok" ?? How does one manage that?? Most are already locked down in care homes or senior homes or palliative homes. Should we do like Quebec and charge those seniors extra (above and beyond already paid for medicare) or accessing health services? Should we hold them down? Should we isolate them forever?
My thoughts in the spring of 2020 were that the pandemic has given every authoritarian in the world the playbook for how to shut down dissent. Remember that the news out of China pre-pandemic were the pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong.
"masks optional" is still problematic. Because performative fear is a foundational driver of fear. If a fool wishes to mask him/herself, then that person must obey generally socially accepted "do not cover face in public spaces" rule that Western societies live by. Masking does NOT prevent transmission, in either direction, therefore "optional masking" just gives credence to masking as having any value whatsoever.
Thank you for this. My take home from the discussion is: what is misinformation? Who is an expert? And are we headed toward totalitarian control? Or Fiefdom? If we do not speak up or vote for change. Any mention of mandates makes me cringe whether it is lockdown, masks, censoring “misinformation” or vaccination. At this point in the pandemic we need to reach some new less constrictive equilibrium. And stop shaming, cancelling or taking down people whose views differ from ours. That includes our bureaucratic public health leaders…..
Great interview! Anthony LaMesa is one of my favorite follows on Twitter-not just for his Covid insights but also his travel and transportation commentary. I would say Vinay, Anthony and Vladimir Kogan helped me the most frame arguments about why our schools should be open and use that info to fight to open schools in my ultra progressive town. Anthony shared great info on European schools and it was clear we could open schools in fall of 2020. I think all 3 of you deserve some special recognition or honor-maybe a school or 2 named after you! Thanks for all you’ve done to serve the kids in this country.
Very insightful. Thanks for this VP. I think in the questions about mis-steps on both the Right and the Left pandemic-wise it would have been interesting to follow up with him as far as...would his own voting be influenced this spring because of many of these Draconian policies from the top down re: mandates, masking, etc etc? It would be interesting to know as a long standing Progressive Liberal would he be more influenced to move to an Independent standpoint vs. continue to vote for those making policies he very much disagrees with. It could be representative of many others like him who have always voted one way & their belief systems are very rooted...yet they feel very betrayed by their own in policy making positions & disagree strongly with decisions that have been made....will this move those folks more to the middle or middle/Right & how will that play out in elections? What about you VP....can you in good conscience vote for any local Cal. officials who perpetuate what you continue to be vocal about & stand in opposition to?
Dr. Prasad, I seldom miss an article or podcast of yours, but please leave politics out of this. I follow you for your message, not where you are on the political spectrum. As you yourself have mentioned in various outlets, there is no place for politics in public health policy. So why mention yours or LaMesa's "progressive or left of center" identification? In a generally great interview with him, why am I reading these words and the words republican/democrat?
Great questions and discussion. The guest seems to not appreciate the inherent corruption in large government institution's as opposed to small local governance. As the old mantra goes, "absolute power corrupts absolutely," which highlights the wisdom in our constitutional republic of federalism and checks and balances. Currently, most of this abuse of power is coming from the left, as well as the blatant casting away of civil liberties all across the west. If it weren't for local governance, I fear the US would look very much like Australia or Canada.
Vinay I have some data in an .xls file that I believe is important to review. It is regarding C-19 in Saskatachewan, Canada. What is the best way to send it to you?
Vinay — I have to ask a practical question. As a leftist who is pretty embedded in mainstream-liberal society (urban liberal class, LGBT advocates, other leftist demographics), I am now finding myself in an awfully difficult position: I am pretty much in lockstep with the position advocated in this article, as well as more centrist approaches to pandemic mandates that balance the harms vs. the benefits of various pandemic restrictions.
The question is, how do we start to make change, on the ground? Advocating for more centrist positions within homogenous leftist circles can be pretty scary, whether among friends, family, or community groups. And yet I feel myself having to push back, because it is considered "ableist" to ease lockdown measures (thus theoretically spreading the virus more to at-risk groups), but it isn't sexist to subject women to increased chances of domestic violence? It isn't cruel to subject recovered addicts to long, unpredictable waves of isolation, increasing their risk of relapse or overdose? It isn't cruel to cut depressed people off from community, increasing the risk of suicide?
I am finding myself in a bit of an internet bubble, and wondering how to bring these thoughts into the real world. -J
Overall, a great interview with a lot of nuance. I think Mr. LaMesa is too charitable to the mistakes and excesses of the anti-NPI crowd - particularly in the first year of the pandemic when vaccines were not yet widely available - but who amongst us doesn't cut our ideological fellow travelers undue slack?
Attributing causality is tricky, and many Republican politicians (including Trump) have advocated for vaccination. But at the very least, there seems to be a clear parallel between the role the neurotic / anxious tendencies of COVID alarmists played in school closure, and the role the contrarian / conspiratorial tendencies of COVID denialists played in slow vaccine uptake on the right.
First comment : "Hyperlocal control of public schools was a barrier to reopening them, because there was a leadership vacuum." This can cut both ways, centralized decision making does not gauruntee reopening... not at all. The fear continued to be reinforced and even amplified for many months.
Very Interesting. Both the right and left have those who care deeply both about the poor and the democracy, but this pandemic has shown how many prefer to mandate and control freedoms and not prioritize the vulnerable nor understand nuance.
so... mandating vaccination of elders is "ok" ?? How does one manage that?? Most are already locked down in care homes or senior homes or palliative homes. Should we do like Quebec and charge those seniors extra (above and beyond already paid for medicare) or accessing health services? Should we hold them down? Should we isolate them forever?
No mandate is humane. Not a single one.
My thoughts in the spring of 2020 were that the pandemic has given every authoritarian in the world the playbook for how to shut down dissent. Remember that the news out of China pre-pandemic were the pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong.
"masks optional" is still problematic. Because performative fear is a foundational driver of fear. If a fool wishes to mask him/herself, then that person must obey generally socially accepted "do not cover face in public spaces" rule that Western societies live by. Masking does NOT prevent transmission, in either direction, therefore "optional masking" just gives credence to masking as having any value whatsoever.
We should never promote un-science.
Thank you for this. My take home from the discussion is: what is misinformation? Who is an expert? And are we headed toward totalitarian control? Or Fiefdom? If we do not speak up or vote for change. Any mention of mandates makes me cringe whether it is lockdown, masks, censoring “misinformation” or vaccination. At this point in the pandemic we need to reach some new less constrictive equilibrium. And stop shaming, cancelling or taking down people whose views differ from ours. That includes our bureaucratic public health leaders…..
Great interview! Anthony LaMesa is one of my favorite follows on Twitter-not just for his Covid insights but also his travel and transportation commentary. I would say Vinay, Anthony and Vladimir Kogan helped me the most frame arguments about why our schools should be open and use that info to fight to open schools in my ultra progressive town. Anthony shared great info on European schools and it was clear we could open schools in fall of 2020. I think all 3 of you deserve some special recognition or honor-maybe a school or 2 named after you! Thanks for all you’ve done to serve the kids in this country.
Very insightful. Thanks for this VP. I think in the questions about mis-steps on both the Right and the Left pandemic-wise it would have been interesting to follow up with him as far as...would his own voting be influenced this spring because of many of these Draconian policies from the top down re: mandates, masking, etc etc? It would be interesting to know as a long standing Progressive Liberal would he be more influenced to move to an Independent standpoint vs. continue to vote for those making policies he very much disagrees with. It could be representative of many others like him who have always voted one way & their belief systems are very rooted...yet they feel very betrayed by their own in policy making positions & disagree strongly with decisions that have been made....will this move those folks more to the middle or middle/Right & how will that play out in elections? What about you VP....can you in good conscience vote for any local Cal. officials who perpetuate what you continue to be vocal about & stand in opposition to?
Dr. Prasad, I seldom miss an article or podcast of yours, but please leave politics out of this. I follow you for your message, not where you are on the political spectrum. As you yourself have mentioned in various outlets, there is no place for politics in public health policy. So why mention yours or LaMesa's "progressive or left of center" identification? In a generally great interview with him, why am I reading these words and the words republican/democrat?
Great questions and discussion. The guest seems to not appreciate the inherent corruption in large government institution's as opposed to small local governance. As the old mantra goes, "absolute power corrupts absolutely," which highlights the wisdom in our constitutional republic of federalism and checks and balances. Currently, most of this abuse of power is coming from the left, as well as the blatant casting away of civil liberties all across the west. If it weren't for local governance, I fear the US would look very much like Australia or Canada.
Thank you Vinay for another insightful thought provoking piece.
Vinay I have some data in an .xls file that I believe is important to review. It is regarding C-19 in Saskatachewan, Canada. What is the best way to send it to you?
Vinay — I have to ask a practical question. As a leftist who is pretty embedded in mainstream-liberal society (urban liberal class, LGBT advocates, other leftist demographics), I am now finding myself in an awfully difficult position: I am pretty much in lockstep with the position advocated in this article, as well as more centrist approaches to pandemic mandates that balance the harms vs. the benefits of various pandemic restrictions.
The question is, how do we start to make change, on the ground? Advocating for more centrist positions within homogenous leftist circles can be pretty scary, whether among friends, family, or community groups. And yet I feel myself having to push back, because it is considered "ableist" to ease lockdown measures (thus theoretically spreading the virus more to at-risk groups), but it isn't sexist to subject women to increased chances of domestic violence? It isn't cruel to subject recovered addicts to long, unpredictable waves of isolation, increasing their risk of relapse or overdose? It isn't cruel to cut depressed people off from community, increasing the risk of suicide?
I am finding myself in a bit of an internet bubble, and wondering how to bring these thoughts into the real world. -J
Overall, a great interview with a lot of nuance. I think Mr. LaMesa is too charitable to the mistakes and excesses of the anti-NPI crowd - particularly in the first year of the pandemic when vaccines were not yet widely available - but who amongst us doesn't cut our ideological fellow travelers undue slack?
But my biggest gripe is that Mr. LaMesa doesn't mention anti-vaccine rhetoric as the single biggest failing by the right. In fall of '21, 92% of Democrats had been vaccinated, while only 56% of Republicans had received the shot, with 40% claiming they "don't plan" to get vaccinated; in other words, most of these folks are not cautious young men who are simply waiting for Pfizer to avoid the myocarditis risk of Moderna (https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2021/10/01/for-covid-19-vaccinations-party-affiliation-matters-more-than-race-and-ethnicity/). These numbers are having real world consequences - the excess COVID mortality in Trump-voting counties in 2021 was staggering (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate).
Attributing causality is tricky, and many Republican politicians (including Trump) have advocated for vaccination. But at the very least, there seems to be a clear parallel between the role the neurotic / anxious tendencies of COVID alarmists played in school closure, and the role the contrarian / conspiratorial tendencies of COVID denialists played in slow vaccine uptake on the right.